Template talk:Heraldry

This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Heraldry and vexillology Template:Heraldry is within the scope of the Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Heraldry and vexillologyWikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillologyTemplate:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillologyheraldry and vexillology articles

This template was considered for merging with Template:Heraldic tinctures on 2018 December 29. The result of the discussion was "keep".

This template now contains far too many links for a single navigation template, and there is lots, lots more out there on heraldry in templates. This merging should be reconsidered and discussed. --EncycloPetey (talk) 13:54, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z","author":"EncycloPetey","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z-Too_much","replies":["c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z"]}}-->

The idea is not to merge all, but notably the ones about charges and related. There are still templates around that are larger. Typically, it isn't too large if it fits well within the frame of a typical computer screen size. So there is arguably even some space left for extentionals. However, per WP:Notfinished, if it gets too heavy later on, it could indeed use a split. Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:01, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z","author":"Chicbyaccident","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T13:54:00.000Z","replies":["c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z"]}}-->

Even merging just the ones about charges would create a monster-sized template. We have to think not only about "typical" computer screens, but what is available in schools, laptops, and mobile devices. This is already well over the size on many mobile devices. --EncycloPetey (talk) 16:38, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z","author":"EncycloPetey","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T14:01:00.000Z","replies":["c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z"]}}-->

Mobile devices don't include navboxes. There are plenty of navboxes that are much larger than this one. A collected overview is justified, until it becomes to extensive. Then it could use some division. Chicbyaccident (talk) 17:03, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z","author":"Chicbyaccident","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-26T16:38:00.000Z","replies":["c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z"]}}-->

It already did get too big in the past. That's why it was divided up into separate nav boxes. There is no need to repeat that process; it has already happened. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:05, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z","author":"EncycloPetey","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-26T17:03:00.000Z","replies":["c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z"]}}-->

The collective overview has its merits. When, and if, it becomes too big, it should be splitted. Until, however, there are too many other navboxes that are as big or bigger. See for instance Template:Greek religion, etc. I can't see any prevailing arguments for an exception in this case. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:32, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z","author":"Chicbyaccident","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T00:05:00.000Z","replies":["c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T13:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z"]}}-->

I can't see any reason to merge, but the choice was already made in the past to split. You have given to reason to reverse that decision. Th fact that some other templates out there are too big is not a reason to make this one too big as well. That kind of reasoning has never been valid. --EncycloPetey (talk) 13:02, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-27T13:02:00.000Z","author":"EncycloPetey","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-27T13:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-27T10:32:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

@EncycloPetey: I have taken your objections into account. How about splitting it in two, with one navbox footer titled "Heraldic achievement", including "Escutcheon (shield)", "Tinctures", "Creatures", "Knots" as groups, along with the image to the right? Chicbyaccident (talk) 18:12, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z","author":"Chicbyaccident","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z-Too_much","replies":["c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z"]}}-->

I don't understand how you are proposing to divide this up, or how additional content that isn't yet in the template(s) would be allotted. I would think that the Heraldic tinctures would be an entirely separate navbox, for one. There is no overlap into the other sections of the template, but it is necessary to set the heraldic tincture series apart from the countless "color" pages on Wikipedia. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:02, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z","author":"EncycloPetey","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2017-09-28T18:12:00.000Z","replies":["c-Re5x-2017-09-30T08:38:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z"]}}-->

I agree with EncycloPetey. This navbox is now just too crowded :( ... Simplicity is key and this template should be about a general overview on heraldry. The reasoning that other templates are larger is quite a poor one... --Re5x (talk) 08:38, 30 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-30T08:38:00.000Z","author":"Re5x","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Re5x-2017-09-30T08:38:00.000Z-EncycloPetey-2017-09-29T01:02:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

I suggest removing the image from the template. The image is educational, but too large for a navigation template. The image belongs in the article Coat of arms, where it is also appropriately placed at the top. --Bensin (talk) 18:59, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z","author":"Bensin","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template","replies":["c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z"]}}-->

One could argue that are plenty of larger navigational boxes that are much larger. Together with the illustration, the navigations box is a fairly complete overview of the subject. Without it, it doesn't. Without it, the idea of the subject is not illustrated. The idea of Wikipedia is arguably to present content - not to erase content because there is too much content. Chicbyaccident (talk) 22:55, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z","author":"Chicbyaccident","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-23T18:59:00.000Z","replies":["c-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z"]}}-->

The purpose of navigation templates is not to illustrate the subject. It is to help users navigate between related articles. --Bensin (talk) 00:35, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z","author":"Bensin","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-23T22:55:00.000Z","replies":["c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z"]}}-->

Since this is after all a visual topic, arguably the illstration helps particularly well here. Chicbyaccident (talk) 16:14, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z","author":"Chicbyaccident","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T00:35:00.000Z","replies":["c-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z"]}}-->

I am all for adding useful content, but the best place for this image may not be in a navigation template. Consider that it will show up on every single article that uses this template. --Bensin (talk) 22:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z","author":"Bensin","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-24T16:14:00.000Z","replies":["c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z"]}}-->

Perhaps a third opinion would do. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:21, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z","author":"Chicbyaccident","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-06-24T22:21:00.000Z","replies":["c-Bensin-2018-07-03T22:27:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z"]}}-->

Sure! Fresh perspectives are always welcome. --Bensin (talk) 22:27, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-07-03T22:27:00.000Z","author":"Bensin","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Bensin-2018-07-03T22:27:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-06-25T08:21:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

If I've ever seen a useful way to employ an image in a navigation template, it's here. But I agree, it's a bit large and does not fit well within the template. One solution would be to split the image to a navigation sidebar template. Edit, we already have {{Heraldic achievement}} where it fits better. I think the image should be removed from the footer.– Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:53, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z","author":"Finnusertop","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z-Suggestion_to_remove_the_image_from_the_template","replies":["c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z"]}}-->

Although it may be a bit larger than most templates, there are also other templates that are even larger. Along with the image, the template becomes a complete overview of the subject, which notably does pertain precisely to visual culture as illustrated. Without the image, that would not be the case. Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z","author":"Chicbyaccident","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z-Finnusertop-2018-07-03T23:53:00.000Z","replies":["c-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z"]}}-->

There may be templates that are larger. Their layout can be discussed on their respective talk pages. Lets focus this talk about this particular template. The purpose of the template (or any other navigation template) is not to provide a complete overview of the subject. That is what the main article about the subject should do. The purpose of a navigation templates is to assist the user in navigating between articles within the same topic. I suggest removing the image from the template and add a new section to the template called "Coat of arms" where all the elements from the image are listed on one row. --Bensin (talk) 00:57, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z","author":"Bensin","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-09T12:14:00.000Z","replies":["c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z"]}}-->

Do you have any more arguments than size concern for the omitting of the overview completing image? Chicbyaccident (talk) 06:37, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z","author":"Chicbyaccident","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z-Bensin-2018-07-15T00:57:00.000Z","replies":["c-Bensin-2018-07-26T06:36:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z"]}}-->

Not that I can think of. Do you agree we should replace the image with its text? --Bensin (talk) 06:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-07-26T06:36:00.000Z","author":"Bensin","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Bensin-2018-07-26T06:36:00.000Z-Chicbyaccident-2018-07-15T06:37:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->