Template talk:Infobox person/Archive 30
RfC: Should resting place include cremationThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Should the "resting place" parameter be used for "Cremation" such as used here? Please feel free to put new headers for alternatives such as renaming the parameter or adding a new one or the like if that seems appropriate. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:41, 10 February 2016 (UTC) Yes
No
Potential alternative #1While maintaining the
DiscussionBoth Resting place and Burial place have a similar coordinates parameter which I assume is meant for the actual final place of rest. It would be weird to call the funeral home that did it (or wherever) their final "resting place" since the cremation isn't the actual resting place of the person (or their ashes) but it depends on where the ashes went. It could possibly be accurate if say the ashes were saved and put in a museum or something like that but generally I wouldn't support cremation being the final resting place in and of itself. This may sound like a maybe but I'm going with a flat no for now. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:45, 10 February 2016 (UTC) The template instructions correctly read, "Place of burial, ash-scattering, etc." (Emphasis mine.) Cremation is an action, it is not a place. That said, I have attempted to maintain—while re-wording to restore the focus onto the place—those instances in which cremation is part of the explanation as to why a person's cremains are in those places. 🖖ATinySliver/ATalkPage 08:03, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
It may be worth tagging some locations as cremated such as if it's ashes in a museum rather than a body but no way should creamted be listed as a location. SPACKlick (talk) 12:24, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
@RexxS: raises (I think for the first time in this discussion) another issue: re-usability of data. I've been working under the assumption that a Wikipedia infobox was intended solely as a convenient summary of essential facts for the benefit of Wikipedia's human readers, and that the reason for using templates and parameters in them was merely clarity and convenience for the reader. RexxS now quite reasonably suggests that we also consider the infobox's usefulness to computer programs, such as—I suppose—data aggregators, which might collect data from many, or all, of Wikipedia's infoboxes, and for which some sort of uniformity in the values assigned to parameters is highly desirable.
I have no fundamental objection to Wikipedia's being generally useful to computer programs. I would, however, object to the subordination of human interests to those of machines and applications—although I hasten to add that I don't know whether or not that would be the result of what RexxS is advocating. Suppose we were to limit "resting place" to physical loci, with numerical map co-ordinates that could be passed to any application. What would then become of the examples I gave earlier, not all of which were whimsical? Joe Hill's ashes really were distributed to I.W.W. branches throughout the United States, except for Utah. (Some were seized by the Post Office because, you know . . . danger.) That's a notable fact, and seems to me to come under the rubric of "resting place", as discussed above; but you couldn't assign co-ordinates to Hill's ashes. The same goes for people lost at sea, and, more or less, for those whose ashes are scattered. Should these notable facts be omitted, simply because they don't make for tidy parameters? Human affairs are frequently untidy. I remain open to considering an alternative that serves all interests better than "resting place" (or "n place"), but so far I still vote Yes. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 18:08, 22 February 2016 (UTC) I think if I understand here correctly, "cremated" is not an actual place, but the term's derivatives can be used as "cremated remains" or "ashes" scattered (somewhere), within the "resting place" field of the infobox. Most people refer to the term "final resting place" or some close variation thereof. Sam.gov (talk) 21:29, 24 February 2016 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Post-RfC observationJust to clarify (and since the closer recommended further discussion), I don't see a consensus above that if someone's ashes are stored at a columbarium, or were scattered at some specific place, that this would not be appropriate to use this parameter for; the only difference is whether the body is "intact" or not (and, given embalming, autopsies, etc., no bodies are "intact", at least in modern, Western burial). The problems with using "where someone was cremated" as "resting place" are a) it's the same thing as treating "where someone was embalmed before burial" in that way, which might even be a different country, and b) it serves no encyclopedic purpose (the reason we include "resting place" information at all is that some gravesites are of public, mostly spiritual/honorary interest; these reasons don't apply to body-processing facilities used on the way from the transition from freshly deceased to "final resting"). The problem with including simply "cremated" as "resting place" is that the content does not match the parameter (it's essentially the same debate about, and already concluded against, including "atheist" in the "religion" parameter. PS: I was going to raise a euphemisms concern about the name of this parameter, but perhaps that should be another discussion, and I don't feel as strongly about this as some other editors do. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:48, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
So, how to fix it?Based on the suggestions by myself and others, and the comments thereto, the most logical (and least disruptive) response is, I think, to leave intact the parameter and change how it is rendered within article space. Some updated ideas:
The instructions at the template page would need to be addressed only if one of these suggestions—or a better one from another editor or the discussion resulting therefrom—is implemented. 🖖ATinySliver/ATalkPage 23:57, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
Template-protected edit request on 3 April 2016
Per the RfC above, change
Use of "family" parameter to list relativesThe documentation recomments using the "relatives" parameter to list the members of the extended family (like brothers/sisters, uncles/aunts, etc.), however a lot of instances intuitively use the "family" parameter, which was intended for noble family or house or any notable family with its own article, like Kennedy family. Can "family" be added as an alternative keyword for "relatives" and the actuall keyword renamed to "house", "clan" or something similar to avoid the confusion? --92.242.59.6 (talk) 11:06, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Ethnicity parameterThere is no mention of an ethnicity parameter in the template documentation, but it can still be used (e.g. Jessica Jung). Is there a consensus for when and how to use this parameter? Random86 (talk) 02:51, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Change Spouse(s) to Spouse
We have had a request here at the Teahouse that Infobox person list Spouse in the singular rather than Spouse(s), seeming to assume that people have multiple spouses even when there is only one. Template:Infobox royalty does this. As we can see at Henry VIII of England the list of his six spouses is labeled "Spouse". I am making a similar request for Partner(s) for the same reason. StarryGrandma (talk) 04:23, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
"Influences"Are currently used for scientists etc. but there seems to be no consistency as to whether a source calling people an "influence" is required, and this leads to "micro-essays" in infoboxes. See Richard Dawkins where the assortment proffered seems to be subjective opinion rather than simple objective fact. IMO. Should "not objective fact" fields be discouraged in infoboxes? Collect (talk) 18:55, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Awards - distinctions?Distinctions, decorations, honours, honors, accolades and awards seem to be the most common terms for this information in biographical articles. This discussion naturally also applies to titles in the contents other than the parameter of this infobox. All of them have pros and cons. On the ground of netruality, I would advocate "Distinctions". Why? Not everybody considers them decorations (term implying aesthetical value). Not all consider them honours (and yet get to avoid the discussion of preferences for "o" or "ou"). The term accolades, although connoting a broad sense today, inevidently has a specific historical etymology. Awards, lastly, complicate the matter by risking to limit the possible contents, considering that all distinctions aren't really awards as such. So, all in all, I would advocate "distinctions" as the most strict and neutral yet broadest term for the relevant information. Chicbyaccident (talk) 20:05, 7 May 2016 (UTC) As for the "party" parameter,...Is the parameter only to be used for political persons? Presumably not (because the template's note does not say so), or, otherwise, I never would have added information to Gabe Newell's article in the first place, so I need to find out about it.
Help creating an infoboxHow would folks feel if I moved this entire discussion to Template talk:Infobox horse person and left a link here? It's really not directly relevant to {{Infobox person}} at the moment. --RexxS (talk) 19:55, 28 May 2016 (UTC) Works for me. Atsme📞📧 21:14, 28 May 2016 (UTC) Use of material not in the body of an articleWhere a claim about a person is not made nor sourced within the body of any article, should such claims then be allowed in the infobox? [1] shows my opinion thereon. Collect (talk) 14:48, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
Attention template editors!Please see Category talk:Biographical templates usable as a module#Adding new infobox templates. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 13:35, 30 June 2016 (UTC) Nationality vs CitizenshipHow should someone's "nationality" or "citizenship" be described in the infobox if they are a permanent resident, but not a citizen, of that country? I am referring specifically to a dispute involving the late professional boxer Trevor Berbick. As an amateur he represented his birthplace Jamaica and that part is not in dispute. As a pro, however, he was based in Canada for most if not all of his pro career. He was a legal permanent resident (landed immigrant) for most of that time but never chose to apply for Canadian citizenship. He was generally known as a Canadian boxer for that time period--for example holding the Canadian heavyweight boxing championship. But according to reliable sources he never actually held Canadian citizenship, choosing instead to remain in Canada as a non-citizen permanent resident. Should his nationality be described as Canadian? Dash77 (talk) 17:38, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Please remove |
Ernst Stavro Blofeld | |
---|---|
Occupation | Master criminal |
Organisation | SPECTRE |
{{Infobox person/sandbox | name = Ernst Stavro Blofeld | organisation = SPECTRE | occupation = Master criminal }}
- It seems to work. If nobody objects, I can update Template:Infobox person for you. --RexxS (talk) 16:55, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
- @RexxS: Seems reasonable. But how will this work, when the data is fetched from Wikidata - I expect we will need a
|language=
parameter. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:23, 2 September 2016 (UTC)- As things stand, it would work with Wikidata only if the editor at the article specifically uses
|organisation=FETCH_WIKIDATA
within the article. As you say, the alternative would be to equip the template with a|language=
parameter and use it to determine the form of each label that has a difference in spelling between en-us and en-gb (or others). My preference would be for the latter, as a longer-term and more flexible solution, but it would require a major effort to convert existing articles, unless the current mechanism is also retained. --RexxS (talk) 13:21, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- As things stand, it would work with Wikidata only if the editor at the article specifically uses
- @RexxS: Seems reasonable. But how will this work, when the data is fetched from Wikidata - I expect we will need a
As nobody has raised any objections in the last week or so, I've amended the template to include the alternate parameter. --RexxS (talk) 15:44, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
which biographical infobox to use
Is there a general guideline somewhere on how to decide which biographical infobox should be "first" and which ones should be lower in the article or modules? In particular, {{infobox person}} and {{infobox officeholder}} seem to have virtually the same function, with different layout. For example, how should editors decide whether a particular human was a tennis player, scientist, politician or "just a person" if they have done all three through their career? I have not found a guideline or essay to help decide. --Scott Davis Talk 02:10, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Why can't we have standard infobox parameters for every biographical infobox?
Why can't the parameters that appear here appear in each of the 20 other biographical infoboxes? That way the field names are standardized. Some templates are missing spouse=, children=, parents=. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:06, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- Because of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and WP:OWN issues. The work-around is to use this infobox, with one of the others as a module within it, or vice versa. If you have a specific example, I'd be happy to show you how. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:21, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- Better yet, I'd like to see module embedding documented somewhere, either here or with a link from here. Last time I tried to do this I gave up in frustration after being unable to find any docs. Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- I wrote Wikipedia:WikiProject Infoboxes/embed in December 2013. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:51, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- I see that page is linked from just about everywhere except here. Can we put a link to it from the "module" line in the Parameters table? Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:06, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- I wrote Wikipedia:WikiProject Infoboxes/embed in December 2013. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:51, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- I would need to see how to do that, I have never seen an example of it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Kendall-K1 and Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Done and done. Is that OK? If not, remember that the documentation can be edited by anyone, so feel free to improve it. --RexxS (talk) 15:37, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks! Now if we just had a generic way to do this for all infoboxes that would really be something. Template:Infobox building, for example, uses "embedded" instead of "module". Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:47, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- Work - albeit painfully slow - to standardise infoboxes, and other templates, is ongoing. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:01, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks! Now if we just had a generic way to do this for all infoboxes that would really be something. Template:Infobox building, for example, uses "embedded" instead of "module". Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:47, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Kendall-K1 and Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Done and done. Is that OK? If not, remember that the documentation can be edited by anyone, so feel free to improve it. --RexxS (talk) 15:37, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- Better yet, I'd like to see module embedding documented somewhere, either here or with a link from here. Last time I tried to do this I gave up in frustration after being unable to find any docs. Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Years active
For reasons I can't understand, this template is erroring over "years active". If I preview an article using the parameter (it was Willa Holland I was looking at), I get
Warning: Page using Template:Infobox person with unknown parameter "уears_active" (this message is shown only in preview).
and the page is categorised into Category:Articles using infobox person with unsupported parameters. The code looks right in the template, though, so I can't see why it's not showing up.
Could someone take a look? — OwenBlacker (Talk) 18:27, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
- The problem was that the "у" in "уears_active" isn't a "y" but a Cyrillic Уу. It was introduced by some vandalism (diff), which was partially fixed (diff): it's easy to see how the editor didn't bother backspacing over the "у." Rebbing 20:00, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
- Aha! Thank you! — OwenBlacker (Talk) 23:09, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Parameter native_lang_name
Hi there, is there a reason why the template prefers that |native_lang_name=
contain the two-digit ISO 639-1 code for a native language rather than just having us format |native_name=
as:
- |native_name = {{langx|ml|ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല}}
|native_lang_name=
doesn't seem to produce any on-screen information, so it's unclear why we're bothering to use it.
- Malayalam: ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല
Gives readers a crucial piece of information that
- ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല
is lacking. "What the hell are those squiggles? [checks page source] Oh, it's Malayalam!" Thoughts on this? Can we change this or is there a highly-technical reason why we can't? I see that the instructions say that we can format the native_name parameter with the {{lang}} template if there is more than one native name, but that seems completely arbitrary, considering that there is no on-screen benefit to native_name_lang. If there are two native languages, suddenly we need to know what they are? In India, there are dozens of native languages: Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, Hindi, Gujarati, Punjabi, Kannada--so while we could easily infer that a native name in the infobox of someone from France is French, that's not so clear in other nations. (Assuming that was the rationale for the guideline.) Thanks! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:26, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Malayalam: ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല
is not a name. The ISO code from|native_lang_name=
is used in the emitted HTML. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:13, 14 September 2016 (UTC)- Hi Pigsonthewing, I don't understand what you mean, specifically the part about the ISO code being used in the "emitted HTML". If you could please explain that to my non-technical brain, I'd appreciate it. I understand that "Malayalam:" is not a name, but 1) we are encouraged to format it that way if there is more than one native language per the template instructions. So it's not obvious to me why "Malayalam:" should be included if there are 2 names, but not 1. 2) If "Malayalam:" doesn't appear near the native script, it seems that we're ignoring an opportunity to explain to casual readers what the squiggly writing is. Yes, they can infer that it's a name, but in what language? Isn't that an important piece of information to be specific about? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:23, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
- Replied at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Question about native_name parameters of various infoboxes. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:48, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- Please note that the
{{Infobox person}}
template does not recognise any parameter named|native_lang_name=
, so if you are using that, there will certainly be no difference in what you see. The correct name for the parameter is|native_name_lang=
. - Now, assuming that
|native_name_lang=ml
is what you are actually using, there is no visible effect, this is true; but the web page that is displayed by your browser does differ in one invisible way when|native_name_lang=ml
is present, compared to when it is absent. Web pages are not plain text, otherwise there would be no formatting, no semantics. The various sections, blocks, paragraphs and phrases are marked up using HTML, and the effects of this markup need not be visible to a human reader, but can be very important to a machine reader - such as your web browser. The page as a whole is given a language - we use the tag<html class="client-nojs" lang="en" dir="ltr">
to specify that the page is in English and has a left-to-right direction. Within the page, anything that is not English (or not left-to-right) should be marked up appropriately. This language markup might be used by (for example) screen reader software in order to pronounce the words in a suitable manner. - In HTML terms, the infobox is a table, tables have one or more rows, and rows have one or more cells. When
|native_name=
is non-blank (let's say that it is|native_name=ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല
, a row is added to the infobox containing two cells: the first is a "header cell" containing the text "Native name" (there's some invisible markup right away - the space between those two words is not a regular space, but a non-breaking space); and the second is a "data cell". If|native_name_lang=
is blank or absent, the data cell will contain the HTML<span class="nickname">ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല</span>
which displays as ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല; whereas if|native_name_lang=ml
is present, the data cell will contain the HTML<span class="nickname" lang="ml">ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല</span>
which displays as ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല. The presence of the extra attributelang="ml"
may make no apparent difference in this case, but in some languages it can be crucial. I have seen this happen with some Punjabi names, where the appearance of some letters differs according to whether the name is marked up with<span lang="pa">...</span>
or not. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:09, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- Please note that the
- Replied at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Question about native_name parameters of various infoboxes. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:48, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Pigsonthewing, I don't understand what you mean, specifically the part about the ISO code being used in the "emitted HTML". If you could please explain that to my non-technical brain, I'd appreciate it. I understand that "Malayalam:" is not a name, but 1) we are encouraged to format it that way if there is more than one native language per the template instructions. So it's not obvious to me why "Malayalam:" should be included if there are 2 names, but not 1. 2) If "Malayalam:" doesn't appear near the native script, it seems that we're ignoring an opportunity to explain to casual readers what the squiggly writing is. Yes, they can infer that it's a name, but in what language? Isn't that an important piece of information to be specific about? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:23, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Further to the above; if you have multiple values, you should not use markup like:
{{langx|ml|ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല}}
but you should use:
{{lang|ml|ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല}}
This renders as ഇന്നസെന്റ് വറീത് തെക്കേത്തല. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:04, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
Default image
The template documentation mentions that this template tracks Wikidata:Property:P18, except there is no default image pulled through from Wikidata. Is that something we could / should add? Having just set |image = {{#property:P18}}
on Carly Chaikin, it is just that simple — it would only require changing |image={{{image|}}}
to |image={{{image|{{#property:P18|}}}}}
and it should Just Work™, right? Is this desirable? — OwenBlacker (Talk) 11:35, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
- Sadly, it won't just work. Despite image (P18) being set as a single-value property, exceptions are allowed (a list is at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Database_reports/Constraint_violations/P18#Single_value ). There are many people who have two images on Wikidata and by default that will result in a failure to show an image in the infobox. A current example would be Ramón Barros Luco (Q1294) - if you paste
|image = {{#property:P18}}
into the infobox at Ramón Barros Luco and preview it, you'll get an error because{{#Property:P18}}
returnsBarros Luco2.jpg
. One way to fix it is to make one of the mages on Wikidata a preferred rank (as is done at Bob Dylan (Q392), for example), but that still means the fix would have to be manually applied in the Wikidata entries for an unknown number of articles. You can probably imagine the frustration of an editor who works on an article suddenly finding that somebody else (on another site) has added a second image and it's now broken the infobox on the Wikipedia article that they curate. --RexxS (talk) 14:36, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Teachers (or so)
What parameter should be used in order to insert the teachers and pupils an academic character have had? --Mhhossein talk 12:00, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think there's a specific parameter for those, because it is not common for teachers and pupils of academics to be key facts in their life, per se, although some exceptions will exist. In Socrates, the parameters
|influences=
and|influenced=
are used to mention influences like Anaxagoras and disciples like Plato. --RexxS (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2016 (UTC)- Those parameters are deprecated in this template - you could use {{infobox academic}} instead. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Infobox scientist has doctoral_advisor, academic_advisors, notable_students, and doctoral_students. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:28, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Would like to invite any interested editors to comment at Template_talk:Infobox_adult_biography#Proposal:_Remove_weight_and_height_parameters_from_Infobox_Adult_biography. Thank you. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:20, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Add field for 'Websites' (plural)
Does this look like a reasonable addition?
| Websites = <!-- if person has more than one official website (esp. if more than one occupation is listed above) -->
In some cases a subject has two noteworthy occupations and two corresponding official websites, each with its own set of biographical details and milestones. If the infobox lists only a single official website, many uninformed readers may be misled into thinking that the subject regards his other occupation as unimportant. --Dervorguilla (talk) 02:42, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
- Personally I'd rather see the existing parameter modified to support the addition of multiple entries when appropriate, rather than adding another parameter. DonIago (talk) 13:56, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
- Could this be addressed by using modules for each distinct occupation? A module for {{infobox scientist}} and a module for {{infobox politician}}, each including the relevant website, for example? --Scott Davis Talk 11:09, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Parents
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
To include parents in the infobox, they have to be "independently notable", why is that? As a reader I want to know the name of the parents, I do not care if they have their own article and are blue linked. Over 5,000 will have to be deleted from the template that are not blue linked, after that I stopped counting. Is this what we really want? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:12, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- I expect that it's an extension of "For privacy reasons, consider omitting the names of children of living persons, unless notable." It's probably reasonable not to draw attention to children, who have an expectation of privacy when not independently notable. The guidance for parents actually says "
include only if they are independently notable or particularly relevant
", so you could easily argue that a person's parents are relevant, especially as they are almost certainly named elsewhere in the article text. --RexxS (talk) 17:03, 6 September 2016 (UTC)- Why not just eliminate the requirement that parents be notable or relevant? It just leads to endless debates about what makes someone "particularly relevant". The whole point of standardized information categories in infoboxes is to have completeness, and not have to search the prose text for the information. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:01, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 06:04, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- It is completely incorrect that "The whole point of standardized information categories in infoboxes is to have completeness, and not have to search the prose text for the information." The point of infoboxes is to provide a quick overview of salient. notable information. Softlavender (talk) 06:06, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- The wiki has never been about "completeness". It has always been a summary of important knowledge. With that in mind, the infobox should show the most important and relevant points. Non-notable parents are not that. Binksternet (talk) 06:43, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- Why not just eliminate the requirement that parents be notable or relevant? It just leads to endless debates about what makes someone "particularly relevant". The whole point of standardized information categories in infoboxes is to have completeness, and not have to search the prose text for the information. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:01, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Binksternet: relations are not ordinarily the sort of key data points that belong in an infobox. Rebbing 11:34, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- And why are "parents" and "children" and "spouse" any more or less defining than "the day you were born" and the "city you were born in" or the school you attended? Can you really read the minds of our readers and know why they came to the article? Can you teach me how to do it, or are you born with the ability? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:38, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- The name of the subject's birth locality tells the reader a little about what a subject's background and nationality; age allows the reader to engage his generational preconceptions (the full birthdate is just a tag-along); knowing if someone attended Princeton or State provides valuable information about educational attainment (having attended at all), academic skill, and social status. The names of non-notable relatives provide... virtually nothing. If you know a subject's parents are named Sid and Nancy, what does that tell you? Except in cases where they provide clues about class, race, or nationality, the names themselves are arbitrary words and provide no more informative than the names of his next-door neighbors—and I see no reason to encourage our readers' bigotry. By your argument—that we cannot possibly know what a reader might find useful—we ought to include the entire text of the article in the infobox! Rebbing 16:48, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- What do I learn about someone born in New York City 30 years apart or 30 miles apart? Someone born on Staten Island is a different life from someone born on 5th Avenue on the Upper East Side. What does that add to their notability, what insight does it give me? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:56, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- The name of the subject's birth locality tells the reader a little about what a subject's background and nationality; age allows the reader to engage his generational preconceptions (the full birthdate is just a tag-along); knowing if someone attended Princeton or State provides valuable information about educational attainment (having attended at all), academic skill, and social status. The names of non-notable relatives provide... virtually nothing. If you know a subject's parents are named Sid and Nancy, what does that tell you? Except in cases where they provide clues about class, race, or nationality, the names themselves are arbitrary words and provide no more informative than the names of his next-door neighbors—and I see no reason to encourage our readers' bigotry. By your argument—that we cannot possibly know what a reader might find useful—we ought to include the entire text of the article in the infobox! Rebbing 16:48, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- And why are "parents" and "children" and "spouse" any more or less defining than "the day you were born" and the "city you were born in" or the school you attended? Can you really read the minds of our readers and know why they came to the article? Can you teach me how to do it, or are you born with the ability? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:38, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Adding parents to an infobox seems fine, is part of a person's history and heritage, and has all the earmarks of encyclopedic knowledge (something, I sometimes fear, some editors here sometimes fear - present company excluded). Randy Kryn 16:54, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- What insight do I gain knowing that both Donald Trump and Elon Musk and "person X" attended Wharton? All it does is answer the question "where did Donald Trump and Elon Musk attend business school". Just as my question would be answered "who were the parents of person X". Why do we include non-notable spouses? We do not require them to be blue-linked, the same argument could be made that no one needs to know that, they can search the prose text. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:40, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- I support that if the parents are identified in the prose (with appropriate references), they can/should be included in the infobox as well. I challenge
The name of the subject's birth locality tells the reader a little about what a subject's background and nationality
with Ted Cruz born in Calgary, Alberta, Canada - information appropriate for the infobox, but does not identify his background or nationality, especially not in isolation from knowing also about his parents. --Scott Davis Talk 01:26, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- I support that if the parents are identified in the prose (with appropriate references), they can/should be included in the infobox as well. I challenge
- What insight do I gain knowing that both Donald Trump and Elon Musk and "person X" attended Wharton? All it does is answer the question "where did Donald Trump and Elon Musk attend business school". Just as my question would be answered "who were the parents of person X". Why do we include non-notable spouses? We do not require them to be blue-linked, the same argument could be made that no one needs to know that, they can search the prose text. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:40, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- Should we eliminate birthdays and deathdays unless they are notable? Why don't we only list birthdays if that particular day has a blue link like Christmas Day or New Year's Eve? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not a fan of this analogy. A day isn't like a person; whether or not a person's birthday falls on a notable holiday makes little difference to that fact's importance. For instance, my birthday falls on a well-loved holiday, but I rarely open with that in conversation, and many of my acquaintances don't know about it. On the other hand, if I were married to, say, Ms. Taylor Swift, that would likely be a key fact about me. Rebbing 22:00, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Proposal: Remove the requirement that parents be "independently notable" (blue-linked) or "particularly relevant"
Support
- We should have the name of parents in articles and in infoboxes, just as we do spouses. There is no requirement that spouses be blue-linked or be "particularly relevant". The exceptions are covered by WP:BLP. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:30, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Support Details regarding parents -- notable or not -- are something that should be provided in infoboxes where available. Alansohn (talk) 17:43, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
- Suppport that if the parents and/or spouse are cited in the prose, they may also be in the infobox. This infobox is used for both living and historic people, so references may not always be available anyway. Parentage is at least as relevant as birthplace in many cases. --Scott Davis Talk 00:44, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Support, in an infobox the key "word" is "info". If a notable person has an infobox, and the subject's parents and spouses are known and are a part of that persons life, of course they should be included. Not everyone needs them listed, but that is the judgement of the page's editors, and if they decide to put that data into an infobox, there should be no barriers to the inclusion of that information. Randy Kryn 10:59, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Support There's no harm in adding parents to infobox. It's better if they are added as they are an integral part of the person's identity as well as important for wikidata. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 03:46, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
Oppose
- Oppose: The purpose of an infobox is to "summarize . . . key facts"; "[t]he less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose . . . ." WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. In most cases, the names of a subject's parents are mere trivia. They are distinguishable from a spouse's name in that whether a person is married, and to whom, are important talking points in Western culture. If anything, I am inclined to think that the
|spouse=
parameter should be limited to instances where the spouse is notable or particularly relevant, but I can imagine why it isn't. Rebbing 21:32, 10 September 2016 (UTC) - Oppose Per MOS:IBX, "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance." Unless lineage is a "key fact" about the subject, it doesn't belong. SteveStrummer (talk) 02:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per Rebbing, including that spouse should also be omitted unless notable and/or particularly relevant. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:57, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose -- no reason to include parents (and spouse) if otherwise not notable. The infobox is not the place for excessive intricate detail. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:53, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. Listing non-notable and/or non-relevant parents only increases the irritating clutter in infoboxes, and violates individuals' privacy. Softlavender (talk) 02:32, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose – absolutely not, as per WP:BLPNAMES (and WP:NPF). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:38, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
General comments
- I took the liberty of refactoring this proposal. Since it didn't have an accompanying introduction, it makes more sense as a subsection of the related discussion (also: duplicate section names), and, because there's only a simple decision to be made, I think asking for "support" or "oppose" votes is clearer and more conventional. Is this okay with you, Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )? Rebbing 21:13, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Annnnd we're back to talking past each other in separate sections with interspersed, untrheaded replies. Rebbing 22:09, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Because this really isn't the place for stray comments, just !votes, the general discussion was in the previous section with claims and counterclaims. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:18, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- I was referring to your unindented comment in the "oppose" section above, presumably, a reply to my vote. Rebbing 23:37, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Because this really isn't the place for stray comments, just !votes, the general discussion was in the previous section with claims and counterclaims. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:18, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Annnnd we're back to talking past each other in separate sections with interspersed, untrheaded replies. Rebbing 22:09, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Comment "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves [to summarize]", it will achieve perfection when it is empty. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:47, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- If you're going to make an argument to absurdity, at least consider both extremes. My position taken to the extreme would mean no infobox, yet many quality articles don't have infoboxes, so that's not an absurd result. Your position taken to its extreme would have every fact given in the article restated in the infobox, an obviously absurd outcome. Therefore, the argument to absurdity does not support your case. Rebbing 22:07, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Just those fields agreed upon to be added to the infobox by consensus. It is as absurd as only adding birthdays and deathdays to the infobox if those dates are notable like Christmas Day or New Year's Eve. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:14, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Good comparison. And the "less information" theory of infoboxes leaves me scratching my head as to why they are then named "infoboxes". A spouse is certainly a key point of information, and someone's parents may or may not be not be notable but are, in many cases, certainly notable in a summary of a subject's life. Randy Kryn 11:07, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Just those fields agreed upon to be added to the infobox by consensus. It is as absurd as only adding birthdays and deathdays to the infobox if those dates are notable like Christmas Day or New Year's Eve. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:14, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- If you're going to make an argument to absurdity, at least consider both extremes. My position taken to the extreme would mean no infobox, yet many quality articles don't have infoboxes, so that's not an absurd result. Your position taken to its extreme would have every fact given in the article restated in the infobox, an obviously absurd outcome. Therefore, the argument to absurdity does not support your case. Rebbing 22:07, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
I propose dropping "resting place"
A. Dropping redundant, Wikipedia:Weasel word-violating alternative. comp.arch (talk) 14:05, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
B. An alternative to proposal A. is looking for amended wording to my first change that got reverted; "may be used" seems strange; "should use" better. comp.arch (talk) 14:05, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- This is a perennial proposal; always rejected, It is not a "weasel word". It is the correct term, as in "come to rest; cease being mobile", not "rest in peace". Furthermore, contrary to your edits, which were correctly reverted, it has no religious connotation, and covers internments other than burials. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:22, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- Andy is correct, it is the common term for such a location. It does not confer any sort of religious connotation. -DJSasso (talk) 16:36, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- If you really do mean "internment" I don't see what that has to do with burial. If you mean "interment" I have only ever heard that used to refer to burial; what other types of interment are there? Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- About "come to rest" I didn't think of that, meaning "cease being mobile", and it may not be true, seeing how e.g. the London underground has a non-"policy on the scattering of ashes. We deal with requests on a case by case basis."..[2], you wouldn't need a moving train, for atoms to move (just worms); or scattering ashes at sea. You can consider the proposal revoked, until I look into this more. [I do see eternal home, permanent address, boneyard, necropolis, place of interment and of course graveyard [3] as possible synonyms. comp.arch (talk) 20:49, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's a matter of etymology, not physics. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- "Interment of ashes" is a term-of-art for placing ashes, rather than scattering them - see e.g. http://www.scattering-ashes.co.uk/help-advice/interment-of-ashes/ - this would be associated with a cremation, of course, rather than a burial.
- Question for Comp.arch: if we removed
|resting_place=
, that would leave only|burial_place=
, so how would we deal with a subject whose ashes were scattered or interred, but not buried? --RexxS (talk) 17:26, 31 October 2016 (UTC)- Or like an acquaintance (I hesitate to call this person a friend) of mine who had their grandmother's ashes compressed down, converted into an industrial gem and set in a ring. They are now more mobile than they have been for the last 20 years... Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:30, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- About "come to rest" I didn't think of that, meaning "cease being mobile", and it may not be true, seeing how e.g. the London underground has a non-"policy on the scattering of ashes. We deal with requests on a case by case basis."..[2], you wouldn't need a moving train, for atoms to move (just worms); or scattering ashes at sea. You can consider the proposal revoked, until I look into this more. [I do see eternal home, permanent address, boneyard, necropolis, place of interment and of course graveyard [3] as possible synonyms. comp.arch (talk) 20:49, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- I propose a pull down menu with options such as "comfy chair" and "cozy warm bed". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Consistency
Someone is making the argument that rules generated at this template do not apply to the other 35 biographical templates that use the same field, and they need to be negotiated at each of the 35 biographical templates separately (the number may be lower now, since we merge templates as best as we can). The argument is when to use "education=" vs. "alma_mater=" (the singular nourishing mother). The arguments are above on this page, but the changing of the field names has now spread to the officeholder template. Do we really have to relitigate this 35 times? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 02:46, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think so. MOS:INFOBOX § Consistency between infoboxes says that parameters should be consistent between infoboxes. Since {{infobox person}} is the most widely used biographical infobox, it seems to me that other biographical infoboxes should defer to it. "Well, we prefer it this way" isn't a good enough reason to disregard the guideline. Rebbing 03:07, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- It says that parameter names should be consistent, not their documentation. If we want to make the documentation from this template apply to all biographical templates, we should have a more central discussion (ie. not at this template).
- The background here is that RAN is edit-warring across multiple pages that use other infoboxes to make
|alma_mater=
use inappropriate according to the documentation here (eg. by adding degrees or dates). The problem with that is first that those infoboxes don't use this documentation, second that he's trying to convert boxes to use|education=
rather than|alma_mater=
even when the discussion here hasn't concluded that that should happen, and third that when reverted he refuses to initiate discussion but rather just restores his edit. In other words, while documentation is part of the issue, it's not the only one. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:00, 8 October 2016 (UTC)- If you want to redefine |education= and |alma_mater= to definitions other than how they appear in infobox_person, then work to get consensus at the various other biographical templates. Until then they have the same definition that they have here. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:37, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- While the usage practices of this template provide a good rule of thumb for others modelled on it, discussions on this page are merely local consensus and cannot be binding elsewhere, if disputed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:23, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
alma_mater parameter
The description of this parameter is "the last-attended higher education institution" why a single institution? I think we should change it to "the higher education institution or institutions attended". What do you think? --RaphaelQS (talk) 19:29, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose alma_mater is Latin and is singular and means "nourishing mother", we already have an "education=" field for someone's full education from high school to graduate degrees. We should really just eliminate alma_mater, since the function is duplicated by the "education=" field. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:05, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- Many people are using the "education" parameter for the secondary school attended (for exemple this is the case with many articles about British subjects) and the "alma_mater" parameter for the colleges/universities attended later, other are using the "education" parameter for the list of diplomas and degrees. I don't see any reason to limit the "alma_mater" parameter to a single institution. Most (if not all) the articles about scientists are listing all the universities attended in the alma_mater parameter. --RaphaelQS (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
- That is because those infoboxes were created before the education field was created, or the editors still cling to the old ways. I still use outdated ways of formatting data because that is all I know ... until someone points out a better or newer way. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:51, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
- This is simply not the case. --RaphaelQS (talk) 00:55, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
- That is because those infoboxes were created before the education field was created, or the editors still cling to the old ways. I still use outdated ways of formatting data because that is all I know ... until someone points out a better or newer way. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:51, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
- Many people are using the "education" parameter for the secondary school attended (for exemple this is the case with many articles about British subjects) and the "alma_mater" parameter for the colleges/universities attended later, other are using the "education" parameter for the list of diplomas and degrees. I don't see any reason to limit the "alma_mater" parameter to a single institution. Most (if not all) the articles about scientists are listing all the universities attended in the alma_mater parameter. --RaphaelQS (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
Didn't we just discuss this in August? Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:23, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
Get rid of Alma_mater field
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It is redundant with education and we really should not be using Latin, where we need a blue link in a template so people can figure out what it means. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:35, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Remove
- Remove Right now it is only used to remove degrees from anyone's infobox with the argument that "education" is the only place where degrees may be mentioned. Remove it. Collect (talk) 16:40, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
- Remove it As with "hometown" field this is better handled in prose in the body of the article. MarnetteD|Talk 18:15, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
- Remove
|alma_matter=
English word|education=
makes more sense in English Wikipedia. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 03:53, 20 August 2016 (UTC)- "Alma mater" and "Education" are both English words, and both make equal sense, and they do not mean the same thing. I find the assertion unpersuasive that "we really should not be using Latin, where we need a blue link in a template so people can figure out what it means". Just as bonus, ego, bona fide, per se, ad hoc, impromptu, vice versa, etc. (yes, even et cetera!), are common English words with "blue links", so is "Alma mater". You do realize that most of English is derived from other languages, such as Latin, right? Just remove the unnecessary blue link from "alma mater" if that is your concern, as the English term is rather self-explanatory. If you wish to remove the
|alma mater=
field altogether, with what do you propose to replace it (remember: "education" serves a different function here)? Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2016 (UTC) - A person has a J.D., Ph.D., and M.D. from three different schools, which one is their nourishing mother? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 23:41, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- I would say that's a case for the
|education=
field. Rebbing 02:34, 16 September 2016 (UTC) - All three degrees and all three schools go into the
|education=
field. The|alma mater=
field, if it is also used in this highly unlikely hypothetical situation, would only have the name of the main institution described as the "alma mater" in the reliable sources already cited in the body of the article. Xenophrenic (talk) 04:45, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
- I would say that's a case for the
- "Alma mater" and "Education" are both English words, and both make equal sense, and they do not mean the same thing. I find the assertion unpersuasive that "we really should not be using Latin, where we need a blue link in a template so people can figure out what it means". Just as bonus, ego, bona fide, per se, ad hoc, impromptu, vice versa, etc. (yes, even et cetera!), are common English words with "blue links", so is "Alma mater". You do realize that most of English is derived from other languages, such as Latin, right? Just remove the unnecessary blue link from "alma mater" if that is your concern, as the English term is rather self-explanatory. If you wish to remove the
Keep
- Keep per Sarah:
|alma mater=
is appropriate when we only know the school;|education=
when we have more details. The Latinate phrase is common English. Rebbing 02:34, 16 September 2016 (UTC) - Keep
NeutralAll information appearing in the Infobox should first appear in prose in the body of the article anyway; the factoids in the Infobox are supposed to be convenient "at-a-glance", clear and uncontroversial summaries. There are metadata collection applications that access parts of our Infobox data, but I'm not familiar enough with them to know which may use these specific fields. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:47, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
- I am familiar, and I will adjust Wikidata accordingly. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:01, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- Keep. Sometimes the degree isn't known, or the person may have left without a degree. We should keep it with advice to use the "education" field when the degree details are known, and the "alma mater" field when not, but not to use both. SarahSV (talk) 18:16, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
- SarahSV, could you elaborate on why one couldn't use
|education=
to cover both cases? It provides more room for details than|alma mater=
which is designed only for institution name and nothing else. (I could see an argument for removing|education=
as an anti-clutter measure, but I'm not sure I understand your point). Nikkimaria (talk) 20:01, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
- Nikkimaria, where we don't know what degrees were obtained, but we do know that the person attended a certain university, adding "education = Harvard University" seems odd. SarahSV (talk) 20:30, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
- They were still educated at Harvard even if we do not know the degree earned and the year they graduated, or if they dropped out before graduation. If the field name needs a blue link to explain the Latin phrase then it is not a good field to have. It will also eliminate the problem stated above of people warring over what belongs in what field, like we are doing now. As I pointed out in the previous post we have one editor eliminating the years and the degrees from the alma_mater field instead of changing the field name to "education". I counted over 100 deletions. The current two fields confuses Wikidata which imports the data and supplies it to the other language Wikipedias. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:38, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- Nikkimaria, where we don't know what degrees were obtained, but we do know that the person attended a certain university, adding "education = Harvard University" seems odd. SarahSV (talk) 20:30, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
- SarahSV, could you elaborate on why one couldn't use
- Remove
|education=
instead to provide for a concise and clear listing rather than a catch-all. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:36, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- Can you restate that, I can't understand "to provide for a concise and clear listing rather than a catch-all". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 02:39, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
- Per the description above,
|alma mater=
is "a more concise alternative" to|education=
; the former includes just institution, the latter is designed to encompass "clutter". Nikkimaria (talk) 03:51, 20 August 2016 (UTC)- Because the description calls it "concise", does not mean it is, "nourishing mother" is archaic, more than concise. Nor is "education" clutter, 99.99999% of Wikipedia is clutter because I have no interest in reading it. "Clutter" and "trivia" and "cruft" and the other synonyms you see in arguments, just mean "I have no interest in it". If you have no interest, ignore it, and let the people who have a genuine interest in the topic, find what they are looking for. Purposefully obscuring the information in prose somewhere in the body of the article does not serve the reader. Using outdated Latin terms, just to show we know Latin, is silly when we have a perfect English equivalent. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:01, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
- Whatever information you personally think should be included, institution name alone is undeniably more concise than institution name+degree name+year+whatever else. I'd be fine with calling the parameter "education", but only if it adopts the description/data currently used for
|alma mater=
rather than what is currently used for|education=
. And the anti-clutter argument that you dismiss is based on WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE - we don't include every datapoint that someone might possibly be interested in. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:10, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
- Whatever information you personally think should be included, institution name alone is undeniably more concise than institution name+degree name+year+whatever else. I'd be fine with calling the parameter "education", but only if it adopts the description/data currently used for
- Because the description calls it "concise", does not mean it is, "nourishing mother" is archaic, more than concise. Nor is "education" clutter, 99.99999% of Wikipedia is clutter because I have no interest in reading it. "Clutter" and "trivia" and "cruft" and the other synonyms you see in arguments, just mean "I have no interest in it". If you have no interest, ignore it, and let the people who have a genuine interest in the topic, find what they are looking for. Purposefully obscuring the information in prose somewhere in the body of the article does not serve the reader. Using outdated Latin terms, just to show we know Latin, is silly when we have a perfect English equivalent. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:01, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
- Per the description above,
- Can you restate that, I can't understand "to provide for a concise and clear listing rather than a catch-all". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 02:39, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
Education template
How about an education template so that they are all formatted identically with the degree and year in small text? This would be similar to the "marriage" template that formats marriage and end of marriage dates identically across infoboxes. previously it was hard to discern if "Barbara Smith (1810-1840)" was the birth and death years or the marriage interval. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:06, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- We don't put small text in infoboxes - see Template talk:Marriage #Text size for dates and MOS:FONTSIZE. --RexxS (talk) 09:19, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- Two people commenting does not make consensus for all of Wikipedia. MOS:FONTSIZE says "reduced font sizes should be used sparingly". and not to use it in infoboxes where a small font is already in use: Don't double small a font. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 12:56, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- What's your point? I was only showing you that {{marriage}} saw the problem of small text in infoboxes already. MOS:FONTSIZE says
Avoid using smaller font sizes in elements that already use a smaller font size, such as infoboxes, navboxes and reference sections. In no case should the resulting font size drop below 85% of the page fontsize (or 11px).
Your suggestion of "all formatted identically with the degree and year in small text" fails immediately because putting small text into infoboxes is contrary to MOS. --RexxS (talk) 16:13, 15 August 2016 (UTC)- We have guidelines not Biblical laws, they were written by us, and can be changed by us, through consensus. At one time all fair use images were being purged, and a few weeks later were being restored, all through consensus ... consensus can and always does change. The classical music group deleted all infoboxes from biographies despite all other biographies having them. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:52, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong - see Beethoven. These particular guidelines at MOS are an accessibility issue - 85% of base page fontsize is a bright line - and aren't going to be changed to suit one editor's individual aesthetics. Putting small text into an infobox is never going to fly with the majority who believe it is important to accommodate readers with impaired vision. --RexxS (talk) 19:05, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- The one constant in Wikipedia is that the format will always be changing. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:15, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- The second constant in Wikipedia is that those editors who care about the readers will always outnumber those who don't. --RexxS (talk) 00:02, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
- The one constant in Wikipedia is that the format will always be changing. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:15, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Richard: If you believe the manual of style should be changed, isn't that a discussion better suited to WT:MOSTEXT? Graham (talk) 02:59, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
- Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong - see Beethoven. These particular guidelines at MOS are an accessibility issue - 85% of base page fontsize is a bright line - and aren't going to be changed to suit one editor's individual aesthetics. Putting small text into an infobox is never going to fly with the majority who believe it is important to accommodate readers with impaired vision. --RexxS (talk) 19:05, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- We have guidelines not Biblical laws, they were written by us, and can be changed by us, through consensus. At one time all fair use images were being purged, and a few weeks later were being restored, all through consensus ... consensus can and always does change. The classical music group deleted all infoboxes from biographies despite all other biographies having them. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:52, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- What's your point? I was only showing you that {{marriage}} saw the problem of small text in infoboxes already. MOS:FONTSIZE says
- Two people commenting does not make consensus for all of Wikipedia. MOS:FONTSIZE says "reduced font sizes should be used sparingly". and not to use it in infoboxes where a small font is already in use: Don't double small a font. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 12:56, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
How much information should it contain?
How much information should the field contain? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 13:32, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- A: "Harvard College (B.A.) Harvard Law School (J.D.)"
- B: "Harvard College (B.A., 1968) Harvard Law School (J.D., 1970)"
- C: "Harvard College (B.A., 1968, History) Harvard Law School (J.D., 1970)"
- Unless the precise field of study is important to the person's notability, suggest use of school, year, degree (without Wikilink to degree name - just use "B.A., M.A., etc.)
- Harvard College 1968 B.A.; Harvard Law School 1970 J.D.
- Too major a change to grasp? Collect (talk) 13:43, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- You are right, the blue links for degrees create a sea of blue. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:17, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- What if {{abbr}} were used, as it is in {{marriage}}? Graham (talk) 03:02, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
- You are right, the blue links for degrees create a sea of blue. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:17, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- How much info should the field contain? Which field?
|alma mater=
or|education=
? The alma mater field should contain only the name of the main institution (usually the most recent location where the most advanced education was received). The education field should contain degrees earned, along with the field of study for each degree (noting that someone earned a B.S., without saying what field of study, is uninformative for our readers), and optionally the institution name(s). Special formatting, font sizes, non-standard characters, and other clutter shouldn't appear in either field. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
College or parent university?
A small group of people are converting the college or school attended to the parent university. Should we be writing in Harvard Law School and Harvard Medical School or only the parent university, Harvard University. Does the reader expect a person with an M.D. to have attended a medical school and J.D. a law school? The same goes for an M.B.A. and the same for people getting degrees in politics from the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and the John F. Kennedy School of Government. Just telling me they attended Harvard or Princeton after their undergraduate degree is correct but misleading. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- Depends – In the cases that you have listed, I would definitely use the parent institution. Otherwise you could wind up with, for instance, "Faculty of Arts, University of X" being listed. I would list the college, however, for a collegiate university, e.g, University of London, University of Oxford, University of Cambridge.
- I am curious as to why you believe it is "misleading" to say that an alumnus of the John F. Kennedy School of Government attended Harvard. Would you say the same if, rather than the John F. Kennedy School of Government, we were discussing Harvard Divinity School or the Harvard Graduate School of Arts and Sciences (which have Harvard in their name but are otherwise no different)? Graham (talk) 03:19, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
- Just as if I asked someone where they lived, and they said Earth. While correct it conveys less information than the county, state, and city. Knowing that someone attended the University of California is not as informative as knowing they attended the "David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA" or "UCLA School of Law". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:38, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- And yet, you have yet to explain where you draw the line with respect to specificity, because earlier you were concerned about being too specific. Graham (talk) 05:08, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- Just as if I asked someone where they lived, and they said Earth. While correct it conveys less information than the county, state, and city. Knowing that someone attended the University of California is not as informative as knowing they attended the "David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA" or "UCLA School of Law". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:38, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
- "Faculty of Arts, University of X" is a department, not a school. We also are not supposed to be using Easter Egg linking. I expect a physician to be attending a medical school, and I expect a lawyer to attend a law school. Knowing that someone is a human is less informative than knowing if they were male of female. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:22, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Richard Arthur Norton: I think there may have been a miscommunication, because I don't think I advocated easter egg linking (which, as an aside, is an issue I've been coming across more and more in the alma mater field recently). Graham (talk) 04:28, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
- Also, how do you distinguish between a faculty and a school, if you're arguing that's the dividing line? The terms are used differently by different institutions. For instance, at the University of Warwick, a school is just a part of a faculty, and that kind of nomenclature isn't uncommon in a number of English-speaking countries. Graham (talk) 04:35, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
- If it doesn't have an article, do not link to it, then use the parent article. I think that is a good compromise, what do you think? We shouldn't have red links. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 02:37, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see why we wouldn't link to the article about the university itself in the case of non-collegiate universities. Bear in mind, institutions like the John F. Kennedy School of Government don't normally have the authority to issue degrees; that resides with the university. Also, with your suggested "compromise", that would involve linking to articles about faculties (that have the word "faculty" in their name) in some cases. Graham (talk) 03:07, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
- Depends on which field.
|alma mater=
should only display the main institution name, and not the satellite schools, departments, branches, specialty divisions, etc., of the main institution. The|education=
field, however, might display the more specific school branch(s) of the university along with the field of study and degrees earned, but would not indicate the alma mater. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2016 (UTC) - Very belated, but depends, which means not automatically changing any of these since it varies on a case-by-case basis. There are a lot of times where the specific sub-college is quite useful, and other times where the parent college is only a historical curiosity and not even formally affiliated anymore (e.g. many seminaries). SnowFire (talk) 03:32, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Capitalized or not?
As a bulleted list should they all be capitalized, or just the first one?
Infobox person/Archive 30 | |
---|---|
Occupations |
Infobox person/Archive 30 | |
---|---|
Occupations |
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 23:01, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
- Only the first item in a horizontal list is capitalized. See WP:FLATLIST. Rebbing 01:46, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Problem with duplication
A few minutes ago, I used |module=
in an infobox ({{Infobox Muslim leader}}
) with this infobox. Usually this causes no problem, but this time, the content was duplicated in the infobox. (Abbas Vaez-Tabasi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)) Any idea what has caused this and can it be fixed soon?--Auric talk 00:29, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- Done: It was caused because the
module
parameter was specified twice (data35 and data53) in Template:Infobox Muslim leader. The duplication was introduced on 26 May 2016 with this edit. I've renamed the later parameter tomodule1
. --RexxS (talk) 04:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Nickname
Would it be possible to make this an alias for the other_names field? It is used in some other infoboxes. Ranze (talk) 16:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- At present, the field labelled "Other names" can be populated by
|other names=
,|other_names=
,|othername=
, and|alias=
. Are you saying you want to be able to use|nickname=
as well as those four? Or did you mean something else? --RexxS (talk) 18:15, 28 November 2016 (UTC)