User talk:Dennis Bratland/Archive 13

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Dennis Bratland. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

In response to your concern that the club is not notable, I've established a link to a news article regarding it. Please don't delete our entry. Thanks.

Hi Dennis, just listed your The Check's in the Mail barnstar at WP:PUA. Hope you don't mind, also i haven't put any description i thought i should leave that up to you. Cheers, benzband (talk) 08:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for uploading File:Outlaws logo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 04:32, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate all the great additions you've made to Wikipedia's motorcycle articles recently, and I know you're still getting the hang of how to edit. But I need to request that you cease trying to whitewash the criminal nature of the outlaw motorcycle club articles. When a club is only in the news for crime, and when law enforcement authorities have identified them as a criminal enterprise, then that's what we call them. When you change that to say "some members have been convicted of crimes" you sound like you are their defense lawyer. Lawywer's like to say "my client allegedly stole, the police alleged there was a conspiracy, my client is accused of..." blah blah. Wikipedia doesn't have to follow those rules and speak in weasel words. We can tell it like it is, without legal disclaimers.

We get paid flacks from the marketing department of various companies always coming to Wikipedia trying to put their PR into articles, and what you're doing is motorcycle gang PR. It's called POV pushing. It's fine if you're talking about a club that is not known to be criminal, but almost every one of the Category:Outlaw motorcycle clubs wouldn't even have a Wikipedia article except that they are notable for crime. Just say what the sources say; don't act as the club's PR flack.

If this does not stop, we will have to initiate a community discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard to try to come to a consensus. That's not really a bad idea anyway -- several editors in the past have edit warred over the same thing, and it needs to be cleared up. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

From my point of view this is an unfair and ungrounded accusation as I have not actually removed any condemnatory material (except where it was a dead link and plainly superfluous, as in the fact supported by another live link). Let's be honest about this, I know this is an area where you and a few others hold a strong POV or prejudice yourselves, as evident by your choice of discussion title.

I am not interested in "whitewashing" and will not do so but I am pedantic about the finer details. Is every MC is a criminal organisation as some would have us believe? Plainly no and I doubt even you think that. For me, it is about accuracy, and you can see from my editing record that my interest in motorcycle has gone way beyond the narrow spectrum of "outlaw" interests and into area where I suspect one of them would never dream of touching, e.g. women and gay biking, so I am going to strongly rebuff your accusations.

I am interested in all motorcycling being represented fairly, accurately and well. With all respect, where we first differed in the past over this area, I was being accurate and you were not paying attention to the detail because, as you have just stated, you were assuming that I was following the pattern of some previous editors.

The is one only area where I can see we have differed relates to, like it or not, where the majority of these clubs are legally incorporated entities. This means that they are legal persons in their own rights and so "allegations", "accusations" and actual court findings about individuals within the incorporation cannot be applied to the whole unless the whole has similarly been tried and found guilty, e.g. our recent difference over the El Forastero (which I have never actual heard off until yesterday). I looked at the references and they were definitely cases against individuals not the organisation, hence my editing to reflect the specific facts as reported.

I consider this is a rule which should be applied wholesale across the Wikipedia, e.g. you cannot accuse "McDonalds" of committing crimes if, in fact, it was employees or board members which committed the crimes in the same way you cannot accuse "all WWII Germans" of being Nazis and yet this is basically what is going on. I can admit to not being entirely uptodate on the all legal proceedings against MCs but I do remember one very high level RICO-type case failing, which would prove the organization was establish with criminal intent, and haven't heard of many or even any others succeeding (their may be some, I don't know).

I also referred to, and discussed on a talk page, the problems of one list which contained both 'allegations' and 'findings'. The problem I raised, which you did not answer, was the list included many future court cases but no one was paying any attention to the results of said court cases and updating them. Just because someone is accused of a crime and taken to court does not make them guilty of a crime therefore it must be reported as an allegation or accusation, not fact.

And just to head off your obvious response, some reliable sources are better than others, e.g. I would say most tabloid media reports are "questionable sources", much of the material being referred are "opinion pieces", and some of agency field reports are "primary source" and so should used with caution. Like you admit, one of the problems with this area is that there is a lack of good and impartial research as mentioned in one of the references I used relating to women in motorcycle clubs.

Correct me if that is a wrong interpretation of Wikipedia policy. I believe it is correct. --11:20, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, I am concerned about you recent use of edit summaries to make a point, on one hand, accusing me of POV pushing and, on the other, being quite misleading, e.g. here [1] where you say "remove scare quotes again". I don't see that you removed any scare quotes at all. What is going on? --Bridge Boy (talk) 11:26, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

1. Don't delete somebody else's comment from your talk page and then copy it to my talk page, and reply to it here. That's totally unnecessary, and really confusing. Pasting another person's comment to a new location is basically impersonation. Assume I'm watching the page I comment on, and just reply below the comment in its original location.

2. Don't delete references just because the web link looks dead to you. It's convenient if a news story is online, but it's not a requirement. See Wikipedia:Offline sources. Offline sources are just as good (or better) than online.

3. The rest: you sound like a PR flack, or a lawyer. Read WP:WEASEL and WP:ALLEGED. If El Forastero's aren't criminals, why do they need to control their territory to keep out other gangs? A knitting club doesn't need to beat up rivals for entering their territory. Your claims that "some members were convicted of crimes" is like saying "Some Al Qaeda members were accused of terrorism..." instead of "Al Qaeda is a terrorist group." Wikipedia isn't written by lawyers. We call a spade a spade. See also WP:QUACK.

I'm pretty sure this will need to be discussed at the NPOV noticeboard. While Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons says we should be conservative in adding negative information about living people, most of these cases are egregious. Almost all of the outlaw motorcycle club articles that aren't mostly about crime need to go to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion to be deleted, since they aren't notable except for their crimes.

Remember: don't move anybody's comment around again. Just reply below it. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:52, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

I should add that I'm only about 80% sure that you're wrong about this. I can see how cautious language can be a good idea. But the reason I think it sounds like weasel words and disingenuous lawyering and PR is that most (not all) outlaw motorcycle clubs are obviously organized crime groups. Per WP:OBVIOUS, WP:DUCK and WP:SPADE, most of these articles should lead with the statement that they are organized criminals. Most (not all) of the ones that aren't should be deleted for failing WP:N. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:20, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry not to reply to you but real life is calling. I could make a response "Off the Wikipedia" to put things in context, if you were to promise not to reply with a reference to reliable sources, but ultimately it comes down to accuracy. The law is generally precise. Tabloidism is messy and skewed. I tend towards the former and we should guard against the latter. --Bridge Boy (talk) 23:21, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Can you clarify? I'm not following you. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:21, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I meant I have a lot of real life work on right now and so will be off the Wikipedia, but I am conscious we were in the middle of discussing issues. Sorry, later. --Bridge Boy (talk) 08:25, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I see. Come back soon; there's so much to do. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:09, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Hey, I have proposed a vote for something to be agreed on once and for all regarding the Mini issues; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mini_%28marque%29#Vote Yellowxander (talk) 11:56, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dennis. Just checking in to see if you are ready for me to review Wildwood? AIRcorn (talk) 06:19, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, generally. I can't say I'm done with it, but I don't have plans for major changes any time soon. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:29, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay. I have finished my other reviews and made a start on this one. You can find my first comments regarding the plot at Talk:Wildwood (novel)/GA3. AIRcorn (talk) 07:19, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm on it. Thanks! --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:17, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, Dennis, but it was I who created the topic and now I delete it. Why is no longer useful. I did a more complete and informative.Wisehelp (talk) 00:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

You do not own discussions you start. You may be blocked form editing if you continue to delete other editor's comments. Read WP:TALK. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:36, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I've made ​​this topic, but now replaces the "Include subculture outside the UK." It is more complete and imformativo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wisehelp (talk • contribs) 00:48, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

You are very likely to be blocked from editing if you delete legitimate comments again. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I've made ​​this topic, but now replaces the "Include subculture outside the UK." It is more complete and imformativo. Wisehelp (talk) 00:52, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Please read WP:TALK. You are not the owner of talk pages. They are a record of discussion and if you delete other people's comments, you destroy that record. You do not own even your contributions to Wikipedia. See WP:OWN. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

OK' but that topic is no longer useful.

And the new topic, weel, we agree that it is the same subculture and we include the topic "Outside UK" or disagree and we change the name of this article is "rocker biker subculture" and in another article with the name: "rocker subculture" to subculture found in many countries. This is the most informative and solves this mess. There is no study that considers the same subculture or two subcultures of the same name. This is complicated. ~ ~ ~ ~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wisehelp (talk • contribs) 22:13, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

It's clear that lots of other editors disagree, so you should respect consensus and leave it until you are able to present better sources. But mainly, don't delete any more talk page comments. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The rocker subculture is just a biker subculture in the United Kingdom, Japan and Australia, and not in other countries. I did much research to know that. I think, the subculture is the same, but in these three countries is a subculture centered on motorcycles and classic rock and all other countries is focused on rock music in general and not focused on motorcycles. But rocker is rocker. Wisehelp (talk) 00:51, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I get the sense that you either don't understand or don't care what other editors are trying to tell you. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Dennis Bratland. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Brianhe (talk) 04:30, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you want to take a look at Honda Integra (motorcycle)? I'm not happy with the quality of some of the references given - some low quality blogs - and would appreciate your insight. Would also appreciate any comments you have for or against my rename (see the talk page). --Biker Biker (talk) 11:06, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I set a poll up here, please contribute. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 07:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Hello Dennis. All is fine here in Manhattan. I am working very hard to develop some Wikipedia projects but have not made any public announcements about them yet. I will share them with you when I do.

I have been meeting with people from Wikimedia New York City and they ask me why there is not a chapter in our area. I tell them there are lots of reasons why not, but they say to set up the structure anyway because it needs to happen someday. I drafted this meta:Wikimedia Cascadia and thought you might like to list yourself as a supporter. This is not one of the ideas on which I am supposed to be working; I just put this together for fun. I do not have ideas for developing this except that I am going to present the concept at Wikimania next month and get the message around otherwise to see what people think.

Thank you so much for your support and coming to meet me at Allegro even when I was unable to get other Wikipedians to attend. It seems that there is interest in this Wiknic and I hope that it results in Wikipedians meeting each other and self-organizing.

I am sure you must be enjoying the Seattle summer with your children. It is terribly hot here as well as dirty, although there is a tremendous amount to do and see and so many fun people. I honestly never much liked the coffee at Allegro but I loved the place. Here in this city I have trouble finding both good coffee and locations with space to hang out or meet, but I other than the heat and dirt and coffee trouble things are great here. Cheers, I will be in touch. Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:12, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Done. It's good to hear from you. I'll bring up Wikimedia Cascadia the Wiknik at Golden Gardens in 2 weeks too. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 14:43, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Dear Dennis Bratland,

I am currently this new WikiProject would have the primary aim of creating and developing a page for each model (both old and new) of BMW motorcycle produced in the company's history. This would enable a highly valuable resource to be for both enthusiasts and restorers such as myself to be created, where extensive information about specifcations, development, modifications and the history behind could be found. Not only this, but it would encourage motorcycle enthusiasts, who would not normally have used Wikipedia, to both use its resources and to contribute to the project's pages, becoming part of the motorcycle fraternity which would be the driving force behind this community. Once this task has been completed of English Wikipedia, I, with help of other editors and members of the project, would like to then translate the pages into other languages (particularly German, in order to make the resources available in Germany, where many BMW enthusiasts and restorers are concentrated), and so contribute to the wider Wikipedia group. The WikiProject, would also contribute large numbers of pictures to Wikimedia, as part of its galleries.

In order to promote the group and encourage the growth of the articles in our scope, the WikiProject is not only being promoted to present editors who are currently active editing articles on BMW itself and motorcycles in general, but also notify groups such as the Vintage Motor Cycle Club and the BMW Club in the U.K., which would encourage members (20,000+) to contribute some of the extensive knowledge of the topic which is demonstrated by members of these clubs. Members of the WikiProject who are active in clubs outside of the U.K., would also be encouraged to promote the Project to their respective society, making the WikiProject multinational. Current, more experienced editors, would then help the 'new boys' to use Wikipedia and share their knowledge, which has often been built up during the course of a lifetime of passion for BMW motorcycles. This would enable us, together, to produce a resource which will help generations long into the future and help preserve and catalogue BMW's legacy in the motorcycle industry.

Currently, there are no such WikiProjects which would be dedicated solely to the BMW motorcycles (not even BMW itself) and the development of pages on each individual model, in opposed to the current situation where some models are briefly referred on a BMW related page. This WikiProject would allow this community of people who are highly knowledgeable about this specific topic to develop articles in extreme depth, something not possible with larger groups, which could then be published on the world wide web, available gratis, as with all Wikipedia articles, to the public.

If successful, the idea could serve as a blueprint and be replicated for other motorcycle manufacturers.

Please visit the project proposal page, in order to see more details of the project and to join. Any questions or queries can be posted either on the proposal page, or I can be contacted directly on my talk page.

Many thanks and any help from fellow enthusiasts on this project, would be greatly appreciated.

DAFMM (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Just posted this on the proposal page:

'Following the recent discussions with regards to this proposal, I shall create a new 'Special Interest Group' under WikiProject: Motorcycling, which will be dedicated to the original proposed purpose, of creating a page on every 'group' of motorcycle models in the company's history. I shall be away until the end of next week, and so shall be unable to get started immediately, but shall do when I get back.

Many thanks for your opinions with regards to this proposal and I hope this will lead to some constructive contributions by the group to the artciles on Wikipedia.'

I shall let you know when I've created the new group and composed a list of articles to create, modify and improve.

I hope we can succeed together in this challenge, which shall no doubt be a highly enjoyable and interesting task.

With compliments.

DAFMM (talk) 20:30, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Now created: WikiProject Motorcycling BMW Motorcycles. Many thanks. DAFMM (talk) 13:15, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I'm sorry but non-free cannot be used there. ww2censor (talk) 02:54, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Dear Sir,

The links that I have put on the James Dean wiki are updates to the information, because it is relevant to people who are interested in James Dean. Dean and Dennis Stock were close friends and it has been argued that Stock's photos of Dean helped to shape the persona of and immortalize James Dean, to a similar degree as the film directors who worked with the actor (Nicholas Ray in particular). I have included links below in this regard.

What is more, we are and have been working closely with the James Dean Estate, not only during the film's production, but currently through its release. This film contains multiple scenes that relate to Dean's biography and to the friendship between the two young artists. In fact, the official James Dean website posted about our film's festival premier - here is the link: http://www.jamesdean.com/about/viewheadline.php?id=2370

The film will be released via TV broadcast in the coming months and the image that is used to market the film is the most famous one of James Dean, shot by Dennis Stock. In light of that, it would certainly not be inappropriate for people to be able to find more information regarding the film.

Here are some links regarding Stock's share in creating the persona of Dean:

The NY Times has said that Dennis Stock "helped shape James Dean’s moody public persona" link below: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/arts/design/15stock.html

Also from above link: "Perhaps his most emblematic image, taken in 1955, was that of a young Dean, on the cusp of stardom, walking through the rain in Times Square, shoulders hunched, a cigarette jutting from his mouth."

According to the Washington Post, Dennis Stock was "a celebrated photographer who helped immortalize Hollywood stars such as James Dean" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/13/AR2010011304540.html

LA Times: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/14/local/la-me-dennis-stock14-2010jan14

Thanks for your help and let me know if you or anyone else needs more information.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.95.155.145 (talk • contribs) 18:44, 30 June 2012

First, read WP:COI. Consider whether it's appropriate for you to be editing articles on a subject where you have a close connection. It might be best for you to leave that to others and to edit on subjects where you are better able to follow the policy of Neutral Point of View. If you disregard this, again, read WP:COI. Then perhaps read these articles:

• Wikipedia:FAQ/Organizations
• The Grande Guide To Wikipedia
• Use Wikipedia as a Marketing Tool at Inc. (magazine)
• Wikipedia Marketing - 5 Steps to Visibility on Wikipedia
• Wikipedia 101 for Marketing

Do not add any more links to beyondiconic.com to Wikipedia. They violate the guidelines External links normally avoided. The news articles you cited may be appropraite to cite in the body of an article, but do not advertise your movie on Wikipedia. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:59, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Great American Wiknic Barnstar You are awarded this mighty Great American Wiknic Barnstar for your valorous efforts in helping to organize the 2012 Great American Wiknic in the great city of Seattle. -—Pharos (talk) 21:12, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:07, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I saw your comment and just wanted to say I made the same decision a while ago, in fact when we were having the email discussion about another difficult character. It's just not worth getting too crazy about. Keep on keeping on. — Brianhe (talk) 21:01, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Missed you at the picnic. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:04, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't it raining pretty heavily that day? IIRC that's why I chose another activity, though I'd like to meet you and the other local Wikipedians again. — Brianhe (talk) 03:28, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

We were all sure it would rain all day, but look at the picture. They were playing volleyball behind us. The next Allegro thing should be coming up. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:40, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

It looks like the admins finally listened and blocked BB. So please return to editing those pages! --Biker Biker (talk) 07:14, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm looking for enough info to start a bio article on Cleveland CycleWerks CEO Scott Colosimo. Some sources include a title I just can't resist for a citation: Who the Hell is Scott Colosimo, Hell for Leather. — Brianhe (talk) 03:31, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

My inclination is to first write only one fairly long article on just CCW, covering Colosimo, the Heist, and the Misfit. In spite of the good vibes now, the odds say CCW won't exist in a year or two. It's a tough business to break into. I'm afraid that we'll end up with a half dozen stubs on the company and its products, as with Flyscooters, and no hope of ever expanding them. If we take it slow and create one big, comprehensive article with what we have now, it's easy to spin off sections into new articles later if it really grows to 6,000-10,000 words. If it fizzles, we'll still have one solid article.

My Cleveland CycleWerks folder has copies of 29 sources; I'll work them into the article in the next few days. Feel free to do a Scott Colosimo bio if you like. Just saying... --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Yah, I see ... I'll try to restrain myself, will add interesting bits to the existing article for now. — Brianhe (talk) 03:59, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Great DYK hook! BTW did you mean "surreptitiously" at Cleveland CycleWerks#Scott Colosimo? Brianhe (talk) 02:41, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! And thanks for the spelling fixes. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:59, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Please check the DYK nomination for some issues that need to be addressed. Thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 20:34, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dennis,

I responded to your post about ultra-narrow cars in the Lane Splitting Talk page. I look forward to working with you to come up with a better lead. Mickeysimple (talk) 09:55, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Bored now. What next? :) --Biker Biker (talk) 20:35, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Cleveland CycleWerks! Double check for close paraphrasing. And Motorcycle engine need a new section near the top that comprehensively reviews the pros and cons of each possible engine type, cylinder configuration, and orientation. Both engineering, and marketing (i.e. Harley is only allowed to sell narrow angle V-twins or the apocalypse will ensue -- by what witchcraft did BMW escape their boxers-only strait jacket?). When is somebody going to write a bio of David Robb (motorcycling)? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:41, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, all very worthy, but none of that is much fun. I will comply though. --Biker Biker (talk) 21:04, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

$3200? F*** me, when can I get one? Those are gorgeous bikes. --Biker Biker (talk) 21:07, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Germany looks like the closest market to the UK. What about Cleveland Motorcycle Manufacturing Company? I want to find out why their Lightweight model used a longitudinal crankshaft single with a worm gear to drive the transverse transmission. I think it was because they wanted the magneto to hang around out back. Really elaborate, weird design. Yet one of the most popular models of its day. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:12, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

OK, here is your starter for 10 - David Robb (motorcycling). Next step is to tie specific facts into refs. --Biker Biker (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Category:Fastest production motorcycles, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:50, 16 July 2012 (UTC)